On this episode Rob Parkins joins Dennis and Kevin to talk about public access issues, fly fishing, spey casting, Clauser minnows, Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, and boomerangs. Rob is the Public Access Coordinator for BHA and an avid fly fisherman.

Links to things we talk about:

Rob Parkins: https://www.backcountryhunters.org/behind_the_sce... (https://www.backcountryhunters.org/behind_the_scenes_rob_parkins)

Friday Night Ties: https://www.backcountryhunters.org/friday_night_t... (https://www.backcountryhunters.org/friday_night_ties_how_to_tie_the_jigged_cdc_quails_nest)

Backcountry Hunters and Anglers: https://www.backcountryhunters.org/ (https://www.backcountryhunters.org/)

Boomerang Throw:

00:00:04 - 00:05:23

hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the outside podcast today. Kevin and I are joined by Rob Parkin's the public access coordinator for Backcountry Hunters and anglers rob is a former fly fishing guide and outfitter an avid flyer tire labrador owner in a boomerang national champion. We get into all sorts of topics in this episode including water access to clousre minnow spe casting and how to catch a boomerang with your feet so please enjoy this. Conversation was rob Parkin's awesome so let's kind of get into this Today you want to start it off Dennis Or should I mean it's Dennis Kevin and Rob Parkin's today an rob works for. Ha known rob for a few years. Rob is a avid fly fisherman. So how you doing? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me guys. I've in the pandemic we are not just surviving thriving. Excellent excellent social distancing is my natural is my natural thing. It is nice how that works. You know since this all happened. I really haven't been going out much in talking to many people in one of the things I haven't been doing is just is going out and having fun just between work and life is just Then plus all the snow trail heads be impacted. Dennison I were talking about earlier. Haven't been able to get out and have some fun as much as I want to. In this weekend I went on floated cell with the snake. We did did the Canyon which is about twenty three miles. I think we did. We floated looking for mushrooms and the mushroom. Hunting wasn't great but Was with a good friend and had my two dogs running around. When I woke up Monday I felt more refreshed than a half months so Yeah I think I need to do more social distancing but outside in the woods. Yeah we've we've been We've been frequenting trails in town that we've never been to before In that don't WanNa give away on my secrets but a lot of these kinda multi use trails that nobody may be uses rights to since at a dealing with groups in the savvy see maybe a dirt bike or something you know said refresh new to get out and kind of sample some news new areas that we probably might not have gone to been. Been a perk. I guess we're trying to do that too. It's tough I mean there's just people everywhere and there is a lot of people on the trails that I went to. But you know if you really want to keep yourself busy will social distancing you should ask Pam about home remodeling projects. No just not gonNA let her watch. Sir Listen of home. Improvement Projects in are working on some other stuff now Our Yard is a priority or are labradors are tearing it up and they've been relentless this spring so we're trying to figure that out but we were we're going to do with deck rebuild and some other stuff as well so That's one of the reasons why I'm not getting out as much as list has been created. You WanNa add to it. Yes that's awesome so things going in the bj world. What have you been working on there? You are the water public land. What's the official title? Well when I started working for backcountry hunters and anglers little over two years ago I was hired as the public waters. Access Coordinator To work on water access issues around the country and south to say that it isn't a lot of work but There are other things that we can do. That don't necessarily Are just water. And we don't have anyone working on specifically so a late last year at the end of two thousand nineteen we changed my title Tua Public Are just a public access or nature. So I'm going to start doing some thrust. Royal Land Land Access issues as well as they pop But right now you know with the pandemic things are little slow as far as some of the things that we do as far as policy and getting together and doing some of the events we have and that just because of social social distancing guidelines and just not being able to go anywhere unfortunately we cancelled all our events through June so that started in February and that includes our rendezvous North American rendezvous that was coming up missoula the week of June so the net usually takes a lot of our time in a lot of preparation I don't have a larger role is is a lot of the people with an organization.

00:05:23 - 00:10:00

Do but that is. That is a huge lift in a big amount of time. That's spent trying to make sure that the rendezvous go smoothly and and the you know fifteen hundred plus people that we have attend for. They have a great time and everything goes well But I would say on on the waterfront. What we're working on. Probably the biggest thing. Right now is it's it's it's the news is a backdrop hunters and anglers joined the Dobie Whitewater a association and New Mexico Wildlife Federation and filed a lawsuit against the New Mexico. Game and fish commission to repeal the rule of Having screen segments as ignited non navigable in therefore off off limits the public and it that was introduced in March the law sue and accepted by the State Supreme Court in in in April in. So we're waiting to see what will happen there but were were excited to see something. Something big happening down there can. Can you give people kind of a background of what happened in New Mexico Because that was all fairly recent right not necessarily fairly recent so this whole thing started in two thousand fifteen. The state legislature approved a bill that allowed people to get their extreme segments declared navigable or non navigable. I should say is that you know. Landowners on private ranches. They wanted their stream segments designated non verbal and therefore off limits to the public. So that happened in two thousand fifteen and is kind of weird when it happened or is a big fight. The Attorney General Time Talked about the constitution constitutional rights and how the public of New Mexico have a right to access all rivers in an after this. The bill was passed The next Attorney General Hector Balderas He. He issued an opinion as well It that the constitution does not allow interpretation of the bill that would exclude the public from using public water. Honor running through private property for recreational uses is that the public is accessible without trespassing on private property so it was very much said by the wall of the land that the laws unconstitutional. You can't e e can't allow people to do this but it's something new. Mexico is is a little different as far as money interests in out of state landowners trying to control things and there's one landowner in particular he's oil and gas attorney owns Own some ranches. He started a a nonprofit that that lobbies He has a outfitting business. He donates a lot of money. That the gubernatorial campaign for the the local governor and his fought really hard and in two thousand seventeen after these The first set of stream segments were petitioned or five of them that they that they introduced to the game commission as far as being designated non navigable he was involved and I believe three of the five of them and they were deemed on admirable and therefore off limits to the public so we went through that in two thousand seventeen in then we started fighting talking to the governor at the time about the commission. Overturning the regulations that was in late two thousand eighteen in two thousand nineteen After talks the New Mexico game and fish commission actually put a ninety day moratorium on the the regulations that they weren't going to enforce the law to time and they were going to review it and they were going to wait for an opinion from the attorney general on whether they should go if it was constitutional in September of two thousand nineteen. We didn't get an opinion but we did get a memo from the Attorney General and says that any language the new regulation which attempts to prohibit access to the public waters.

00:10:00 - 00:15:08

New Mexico is constitutional unconstitutional and unenforceable So what that means is we need to start looking at what's going on. Convoluted Massu Commission is politically pointed Position the governor appoints everybody to to the commission including the head in December. The governor removed drove Joanna Krucoff. Who Was the chairwoman Very talented woman Knew a lot about what was going on. She has wildlife management background. She hunts she fishes and although we're told no the what. Everybody thinks that she was removed for trying to to get this regulation repealed So then they appointed someone else. Blue response with wildlife management doesn't hundred fish and it just got to the point where something needed to be done. It's it's kind of tough. I know that when I started with Jay in two thousand seventeen and talking to the board down there everybody wanted a lawsuit right away and it's not cheap. It's a lot of work. It's a Lotta time a lot of resources. And it's not necessarily always always successful if we look at the time in the work that the Utah Stream Access Coalition. Everything that they did down there. They were successful but they spent a lot of money at a lot of industry support kind of the opposite of what we were having down in. New Mexico so we kind of put that on the back burner until this lawsuit started it. Just it came up. Were we were We were asked to participate along with the white water in New Mexico. Wildlife Federation now so now. Is there a certain when they want to designate non navigable? It does it. Is there a certain criteria like it does have to be a smaller stream or or could you take something like that gunnison? Going through someone orchard and be like I want this non navigable. What they did is if you if you were to look at all the defy filings form as. They went back in at the time of New Mexico. Statehood the rivers were not deemed navigable. So they went back to see if there was any commerce trade on the river. Something that would designate under the federal law of being a navigable waterway. And they were able to show that to the letter of the law that stream segment that it was not a non I should say is a non navigable waterway. But that's it that's different than the Constitution for New Mexico. Reads on how the public has access to any waterway right. That just means the no-one's used it for Commerce. Any point correct In in nineteen O savviness a good thing to territorial legislature of New Mexico declared the all waters belong to the public are subject to appropriation for beneficial use. In one thousand nine hundred eleven adopted a state constitution it says every natural stream perennial or torrential within the state of New Mexico's hair bought hereby declared to belong to the public and even air stream is real small it can still hold relatively nice fishing and be refine site fishing creek. I remember At the Ha last year the senator from New Mexico was in. He was conversing with honest for meat eater and they were talking about this little stream. This big trump the defined right and I mean it was it was like the trump was almost the size of the width of the string. So in that happens. I mean that's If it's a if it's a well hidden secret but yeah lot of big fish come out of small rivers if you go fishing somewhere on a small stream you would be surprised that especially New Mexico in part of that is because there are pieces of private land that are just refuges for fish and wildlife In in general and there's not a lot of cold water you know printer perennial year water's cold water streams in New Mexico. That's one of the one of the big arguments that we run up against especially With the landowners with outfitters and Guides Association. Down there. Is that seventy percent of all the water New Mexico's on public land. So why do we WANNA look in in? Try to take that thirty percent from the landowner in a wild people to Trample on private property rights.

00:15:08 - 00:20:28

While you know seventy percent of it is water does hold any fish or the gold enough to hold trout. And then you know makes it big difference as far as the water is when we know that the West was when it was founded people gravitated towards water whether it was for agriculture for raising cattle. Or whatever the case may be is a needed water for transportation for irrigation. Did to just survive. It's the lifeblood of the West and you know they say that that thirty percent that is on private land that most of it already is is only intermittent streams where the only gone they have water in them is when there's trench will downpours or from runoff in. That goes away while the case we're only looking at a a small percentage of water within the state that people are looking to access in the first place in that they may hold trout or some kind of score fish that people wanna fish for The the five that they were able to get get this ruling on are they are they were they previously us. Like heavily used streams for fishing I think a lot of it on ranches but there was a lot of a lot of public access on them Which ones that they that the segments were on were on the Shama the Penasco the membranes in Alamosa and a couple of them did get quite a bit of traffic and that was one of the things where it was just there also on ranches. Were you know for one day for example on Shamma which is a big commercial operation for guided guided fishing? You know five hundred bucks a day. They just the. They put a lot of work into the restoration of the river and stocking it with large fish for their clients and they just didn't want people walking through but the law is in certain spots. Is it it? It's difficult not impossible to get to those stretches river or at least were all the restoration work and the fish have been stocked so it probably wasn't being impacted by the public is much interest. Just GonNA tough it A lot of landowners feel that the that the fishermen that are out there the public at large or not following the rules in our disrespecting private property rights and I think that probably a small percentage of people but obviously we know you know just being an outdoors that it's that small percentage that don't have any respect for private property rights. That really for everybody. Well there's a small percentage that are dicks. Even Allan. Yeah they are. I mean we heard some funny stories about you know people as says the law New Mexico as long as you can get without crossing private property. that he could use them that we've heard people talk about if an angler come up from the stream and ask to use their bathroom or leaving bitter and having parties or starting a bonfire right there. Just use common sense and don't be a Dick like way the water a west or super contracts. Anyway we're not from a state to state to state to state issue right. It is in. It's very important if you are an angler. Someone that uses Uses water for canoeing or for hunting or for whatever. You'RE GONNA use it for that if you're going to go to another state. Make sure he wrote the Law because it is the laws of ghastly differ from state to state now. You brought up canoe India of any plans to do another Boundary waters trip anytime soon. Man I'd love to I keep talking about it and trying to recruit some people want to be a little more aggressive You know when when you and I and our wives Pam Angie did it we the original route. We had planned. When we're at the outfitter they looked at the map and said No. We're not doing fine. We had a great time. It's it's an awesome place special and I would like get in some of the smaller ponds and lakes that not many people go to and just focus on fishing did you. Did you take a fire with you when you're up there I did? I took I brought three fly rods with me all the species specific and did pretty well the first place that camphor because we we put in And it started raining about an hour after we put in on water and is getting late or I boarded.

00:20:28 - 00:25:01

Just get to. The river was fairly long on say close to a half mile wasn't a Kevin and we had to do that. Waste just put in so. He grabbed the first campsite which was awesome and but it rained for two days. So we decide to hang out there and stay dry and have fun and we camp right next big rock on the water and I got five species of fish on firearms from that rock. The which is awesome got pike. Small Miles got Walleye in Pan Fish. It was just. It was a blast. There was so much fun. aren't for all of them or was a different flying canal. Different flies Did off quite a bit using small fly when when the baby pike around so I had to switch to a bigger fly with a with a wire leader but then I got the Walleye black lead John Intermediate Line. Which was that was the plan. It was going to use an intermediate line and in small leads patterns in that. All I'M GONNA get Walleye at worked in then everything else was on cloud Which if if you don't fly fish that clousre. Mido is probably the number one. Flied expecially Warm water species but also for cold water species lefty gray said that it got over one hundred and fifteen species of fish on one fly so it works for everything and it definitely worked in the boundary waters. Put UP OF. Moma small mouth. That was minimum. That's when I when I specifically target small mouth will not use any other flights of her house or will not do it. Someone played amateur biologist at our local reservoir and decided to take and put a bunch of uh small mouth and then so now we have catch as many as you want as they're causing a lot of harm with the other species at the moment so I got my fly out yesterday but I still kind of commandeered into moving things that going in and out of the house around in the evening siding could chance to go out for one of these nights. I have to go down there and start really just trying to become a good small mouth. Fly Fisherman definitely That's place to do it. If you have fish I mean that's what's great about small mouth. Is they love to eat. They just they eat in. Eat An nurse plenty of them in you. Know if you have a small cloud or even. Just woolly bugger. They eat them pretty well. And it's a great way to railway to have fallen in practice. Although doing lose will Yoyo. Yes Almost anything. I at follow up questions. What size closer like a using were you using a bunch of different sizes probably? I don't have my I don't have my My share with all of them but I would say probably size two or four. That's probably what I use most here and colors. I mean I small ones on size. Eight hooks one. I use for trout a baby rainbow pattern in. It's probably two two and a half inches long and it's just Some white I'll of pink buckle and you know then I go bigger but I would say. Probably TWOS ENFORCER. The most most commonly used now. Are you tying most of these yourself or is it a little bit because you also are doing the? Bj Fly tying thing virtually right. Yes out and kicked off last week Friday night ause and went pretty well but I do I. I only fish flies that I tie Started that I started. Fly Tying with twenty seven years ago. But it's in the last few years. I've decided that I'm just gonNA. I'm just GonNa fish flies that I thought Wire leader talking about that. What do you WanNa know? What kind of using or what does Alec like? Why IS REAL PRODUCTS TITLE WIRE? In so it's it by fifteen twenty pounds.

00:25:01 - 00:30:01

You could use that and you just do a blood. Nah to your leader with I Dunno six to ten inches of by wire in any tie not to the fly or incorporate a swivel on it as well. It doesn't matter when you're getting into those fish in your your efficient flies. That are so big. And they're GONNA EAT IT. They don't they're not looking at that wire. Sure now just wondering if if you were tying them on like using that title stuff yet orvis makes these bite leaders that is it's a stiffer. It's a stiffer wire in. Its I'd I think it's eight or ten inches has twist on e. Jen so unravel it and put your fly on it and do it. That way in those work really wells also expect plenty of different ones Wires Nice so so I mean you were talking about real products. I looked up on real products and I did not know you catch a boomerang with your feet. Yes I can. That's a trick. Data Kevin Farren. Who's the Montana? Ba J. coordinator Tommy. Of from long time ago thanks for bringing it up but Longtime ago thirty plus years ago that Got Into an interesting sport of rank drawing those fortunate enough to be good on it and and travel the world on the. Us team is on the world championship. Team I've been Guinness Book World Record Holder National Champion individually so it's it's interesting that's what happens when you don't have from friends. They sports that You know you don't have to throw it to someone at comes back you it's doors 'cause I can throw out no bring it back so okay. This whole thing's kind of aligning. You just made the statement of friends sitting. You're sitting in your place. Time flies. Winter balloon fly fisherman throwing the boomerang so you can catch higher doddie. I'm loner I'm a rebel. How how do you win a national championship for Boomerang? We've really going to get this far. Just I'm just curious I am so there's Start off the brain to be competitive. Has To go out at least twenty meters in comeback for it to be For most events in a couple events that are required distances well but in boomerang drawing are seven different events. At least when I was competing I believe believe that some of the events in some of the rules of change but back then was act in I should also say is that in every event you also had to catch the Boomerang. Except for accuracy inaccuracy. There's a there's a circle on the ground of Bullseye. That's two meters. That's ten points. And then after that. They spread out another two meters and the points. Go Down Eight. Six four two zero so with accuracy throw your ranked twenty meters comes back and wherever it lands is how many points you get then irs Australian round which is a combination of accuracy distance catching so you get points based on how far out goes in spotters. Online's at twenty thirty forty and fifty meters get points based on how far it goes and then you get points for catching it and where you call it Another one was maximum time aloft. Wreath throw it and at the time when I started it was called. It was unlimited where there wasn't a circle on the field. There's now there's one hundred circle when we first started it was you through the boomerang up in the air and when you caught it is the timing had and really crazy technology that went into this and the way they work and way thermals work in the world record was over fourteen minutes in the air working down well and then he caught it audit. Yeah the that it. It's absolutely incredible to see these things. They just they just sit there and no catch a thermal in. Oh sit there and you'll watch rise. There's been plenty of that. Just disappeared in now in so the problem with that. Is You have a tournament. You have an event you know if everybody starts doing this with the weather's favorable. You could spend all day doing this in so they made it so it has to be within one hundred meter circle and I believe that the record for that is over two minutes within within one hundred meter circle with catch which is pretty neat in then. What else is our trick.

00:30:01 - 00:35:01

Catching or Kevin mentioned catching it with your feet or you had a. There is a bunch of different catches. They had to do behind your back under your leg and then doubling which was the same thing but throwing to marines at once in the last two events. Were called fast. Catching endurance fast sketches. Where he threw and caught the Boomerang. Five Times new along took you Pretty incredible to watch Has Like I said has to go out twenty meters. I set the world record in that event four times in my lowest round that I did in a tournament for a world record was just over. Sixteen seconds of your this sixteen seconds. I threw in Ghassem. That went out. Twenty five meters five times in your mind didn't even notice that the thing in the cool thing is the record now is in sub fitting second range. It's it's pretty crazy and then endurance is the last event. And that's where you do the same thing but you do it for five minutes in total you get your total amount of catches and I had the record with that with seventy five. I think it's now which is crazy that it hasn't gone. Although the records had beaten pretty soundly throughout this as technology gets better as people get better and The record for endurance is only gone up. Believe a couple of catches which is kinda weird but yeah that completely. Different lifetime ago But it is Kinda neat. Something that I did in in in everybody at work breaks my balls about it because this year in Boise in two thousand nineteen the United States. Boomerang sociation heather nationals. Over in Boise in it was in August where it had early season mule deer hunt over there so I actually cut that short to go over and visit some friends that I haven't seen in a really long time and Josh coons made sure that he told everybody about it. And so and we had our week long team meeting up in Missoula. It was just relentless jokes from everybody. Everybody there so thanks for bringing it up. You're welcome now serious. Question sure are brewering throwing translate into casting a fly at all does it. No no I would say the only thing is in this is everything in life I was actually explaining this to Pam about training dogs this morning. Is it everything you do? Need to be repeatable. If you're going to be good at something you need to be able to repeat what you did to get favor- favorable resort results and you know if you're throwing a boomerang it's like throwing a baseball or passing a flyer. Autre shooting a vote. If you aren't doing the same thing over and over again you're never gonNa be good at it correct correct. That's pretty good. Looks like you'RE GONNA NEW UP. I don't I have well. I have my two boys year. Holt which is going to turn to at the end of this month and a half a Gifford who will turn a year on the twelfth of May and we actually have a girl here. That's on a staycationing From a breeder out of Washington that bread Gifford and her and so she is here right. Now we're going to breed her and have a have a litter puppies summer. So don't technically don't have a new puppy Lamb going to have a pile of them. Come July okay. What were their names again in over what happened to the one that one your yeah your who brought on the boundary waters awesome dog. He had he added It's health issues and we had to put him down last August Kind of weird because we talked to the breeder about getting Gifford back in June and we actually turned him down because it was just being. Kind of Dick but he was cranky. He wasn't feeling well and we told her we were gonNA take the puppy because of that. Which brand new puppy into the house and went to a show out in Washington In saw the saw Gifford's litter mate in Pam fell in love with them. And it's like yeah. We're taking them home in. We took him home in a week later. Unfortunately we had to put Oakland. He just he had yet a back issue and had problems getting up and moving around yet six years old. We had A. We had to do that.

00:35:01 - 00:40:02

Which is unfortunate dinner that Y- thank you is a is an awesome dog as all labs are but yet he was. He was pretty cool on boundary waters. Strip he he had a blast. He never flipped the canoe. I did it once but he never flipped. Canoes stated in flying and hung out a ran around and had a blast and soon as he was done he would just walk up to the teepee and expect us to Open it up for him. If if we weren't using those prototype Weiner's at the time the full liners. He would have just crawled underneath but he needed somebody to UNZIP them forum. Yeah so back to the boundary waters marital harmony and a canoe mine. Didn't work very well. No no I think for. Yeah for both of us. It doesn't On either side you know obviously you and I are going to save a we know what the hell were doing But yeah it doesn't. It doesn't work too well sometimes when you're trying to avoid going in circles when you're paddling in a lake thing right I do have to say I came back from the boundary waters saying that we all. We all did a great job. We all add different skills that we did everything You know our encamp whether it was cooking or gathering firewood or Angie keeping the would dry the whole time is that we all the different things that was that was good and may have been frustrated with with our spouse but for the most part I think that think we got along pretty well in each other it was a it was a fun trip but I know a couple of times like when it was raining on a lake. Angie was frustrated my canoeing skills and a couple of times that little creek we came into I kind of ran into a brush on the side and of that now and they and they never But that's a different podcast storage. Yeah so still boundary waters Kinda. I grew up in northern Wisconsin and in my wife and I are I I mean. We hung out for a little bit pretty much. I like date for like extended day. We did a week in the boundary waters together Like within the first month or so of hanging out to we survive in. That was almost eight years ago. Now I think or something. That was early That doesn't count. That doesn't count honeymoon period. Still Twenty year anniversary actually did that. My wife will tell you stories. That we We met online. And we're supposed to go on first day on Sunday on a Sunday and I called her on Thursday and said No. I'm not going to be able to make it I'm going fishing hidden Jews like okay. Fine think it was like Friday evening. I looked at the weather in weather. Just ship it was just. It was going to be nasty weekend so I called her up and I said Yeah. I'll go. I'll see if she's told me after that. If that I didn't show up that day she'd never would've talked again so for a microcosm of the relationship to chrome pretty much. What a line in the sand. She she knew what priorities game. I hasn't always worked that way since then. The owners cool spot will We should we should talk. Maybe we can get another trip. Go and I've loved it I'd love to. I'd love to go up there and do more fishing explore more. The other thing. The intrigues me is seeing some of the pictures whitetail. That are up there and maybe fall where he could fish and hunt for birds and and for Whitetail but I think that may be a little bit harder trip to put together but just to go fish That when we win it was a great time. We went the week before Memorial Day. So bugs. Aren't that bad weather was not necessarily favorable although we had some good days but the fishing was good Fish up in the shallows and the number one or no bugs. I mean the stories of reorders can be in. I don't want to be there at that time when we left. What's that? It was starting to get buggy when we left.

00:40:02 - 00:45:09

Yeah I mean there were times where we had to wear head nets but people are so. I can't imagine going there in June or July July. Yeah they pick you up and right away and doesn't sound like maybe you could harness them as energy to pull the canoe swarm and if you get the swarm dog going one direction. So yeah what we need to do. Find those new super wasp. Vagus are flying around in North West et CETERA. Like looks like an inch or two long Canada with other. Yeah there it killer Wa- service. What do they call them? I don't know they look pretty frightening. I don't want to be around. Yeah they did. Do look very frightening thing is after the honeybees right or they will be and we're already kind of having problems of bees if I recall like there's not enough bees not an pollination going on although I don't want to pretend I'm some sort of biologist will save that for upcoming episodes with someone who actually knows something. Yeah get the expert on here. Somebody somebody reach out to us. We need to be expert. Talked dabs killer killer email to podcast seek outside dot com. I'll go ahead and create that right now. You guys continue on near US one. I'm sure you'll find one. I'm trying to think if there's anybody. Aj that is that our part-time beekeepers that as a hobby. And look into. But yeah do you have a if we could find a bee expert. Get on the PODCAST. I gotta I gotta question to like the you're now the public access coordinator for Vha What what success stories you have you know because it's always it always seems like when we talk it's it's you know we got a lawsuit we got this for you know not necessarily you guys but just in general Conservation issues are wrapped up that way most of the time. We don't hear a lot of those like. Oh Yeah we. We got access here. We you know these landowners worked together. Now you get hike in didn't talk to that a little bit now. I think you're right That's one thing I always said about water. Is that if you look at the history of water accesses that always there's always a lawsuit involved that's just the way it works whether it's whether if we look at Colorado what's going on there now with With an Angler. That's that suing the state to try to gain access. Arkansas River is. That's so guarded in South Dakota. That's where everywhere. It's there's a lawsuit than the courts are someone will say that this needs to go through legislation and the laws need to be defined. And it doesn't happen that way in land. It's a lot of climbs terrestrial issues. There are it. It may be a misunderstanding. could be some indication of the. Bundy's you know someone like that. That just they feel that The federal government or whatever government doesn't doesn't have the right to tell them what they can do or urges law and it may be shitty law where people work in work hard to get these get these repealed or having favorable to have access the public lands But some of them are real easy of use an example. Something that I worked on in a little over a year ago. Eric Teeth on valley and the Acquired a new piece of land here in the landowner put a gate up in saying that it was private property and he couldn't get through this access and I started getting calls from the especially bird hunters replace the hunt grouse in and they were saying that they were getting harassed. The land owner had a camera on a fence. Post watching what people were doing as caretaker was was breaking people's balls in so the first thing I did was called the county to find out and I was talking to commissioner near going. We're looking into it so that I called the county engineer and he said No. I've been cutting the locks on gay trying to remove it. It's public land. It's an access and I started looking into it and I called the county attorney and she said well we're working on it. We're talking to the landowner texting with an attorney and it's going to be at least thirty hours of work so it's GonNa be a while I call the bill am I got the deeds looked at the maps.

00:45:09 - 00:50:10

I got the resolution from the county from back in like eighty eight Was able to find that. I think it was one of the first things that the county had online electrically in with a total three hours work the county commissioner said Airpor- setting a resolution net. This is public land. It's a public road. The landowner can't stop that and it just shows that if someone is put energy into something that you're going to get shit done Since then he'd landowner has worked with is working with the lamb and working with the county in him in another landowner are going to build a park law in her going to improve the area a little bit for people to get in there without messing with his public lands or private land so I think there's a lot of success stories small like that that don't get noticed Single search see more with the the map land. Act that The interior is doing for the forest service to or it allows the public to identify places that should be public or or blocked in in the first place. In obviously we have tons at landlocked. The limb You know tr CPS on ex came out with that a report last year that showed just how many acres landlocked land we have so. That's one of them On X has a really cool program That they just they just launched a pilot that we're going to help them work with where it is going to allow on maps users to work in report places That they feel there can be better access whether it is through illegal dating or hosting whether could be a piece of land. That's for sale. That's next to a landlocked. Pclm before service property so then maybe there could be used with L. W. CF funds in the future to open up more access Yeah that that's really cool right because it activates everyone out there using too easily able to identify on you put down a waypoint right like this this airman. Here's a phone number that I saw on the tree right. I could work really well. We're We're optimistic for it. We're GONNA push it when they do want I said they did the soft launch. It the obviously started during a pandemic so they weren't getting as much responses they wanted A lot of them were already Things that people that people are aware of wasn't anything it was found. There was one report that the guy just wanted to hunt deer on his neighbors property. Because that's where they hung out there. Yeah it is an issue by issue by this this forty over here and those mills I don't know how I'm going to answer is people I think are afraid is why are they going to give an access point you know? What are they necessarily going to give point somewhere where they may be hunting Chirrup it? Where does that information go though? I think that there may be a little bit concerned there but I think that were getting these tools. That are really cool that we can hopefully identify more places. That land can be opened up That there's a problem you know we see. We see a lot of people doing work. Know Take Brad Brooks for example in in his brother. Brian Brooks Brad runs our Galley outdoors and Brian is With the Idaho Wildlife Federation but when there started being these land closures wrote losers over in Western. Idaho is Brad took it really deep dive into what was going on with the laws and in they got people noticing what was going on. Erin working on it and You know the same to Billionaire brothers who own a bunch of landover there that there that they were fighting but it shows that if you have people dedicated to this we get it done. Did a lot of times with terrestrial issues is. It's not as hard as people think it's common sense. It's coming to an agreement not losing your head. Cutting the the locks off the gates. It's going to the right authorities in in trying to get this figured out and maybe even just talking to each other like having those. Yeah Yeah it's a good start Good people don't do anymore We were do more of that. I think there'd be a lot more agreements and better access not turn to serve memes over social called all dialogue has to be done with oversold.

00:50:12 - 00:55:07

We're there Kevin Air. It gets pretty hard to to read all the social media and Wade through it in the Glad I can't say that I have a level head a lot of times but I take a lot of the social media with With a grain of salt in kind of laugh at often it even though they're my friends I know that they may have different feelings about certain things but whatever Just arguing with with with someone who's AJ member over in Boise argued about some political thing? He's like well if you have a problem with if he could call me. I said if I call you. I'm not gonNA talk about politics. I'm going to talk about what tags you applied for where we're going to go fishing in you know. He texted me and goes. That's awesome and I just got my first trout on fly rod and that's the stories. I WanNa hear you know if I'm going to talk somebody. That from social media is that's what I want to talk about. Presponse back to the fly rod five later the eight eight the five or go all the way down to the choleric Don't get me started on. Our HARA means are priceless boy appearance to contributed me right now. Integra Parkinson really like reels. I really like real time. Convenient any could do the same thing. You could just put twelve feet a line outside of your rod in Canberra Fish. Can't move your thing. Hold on same thing. I will have to admit that. I fish to little creek in the Scapegoat With Hal Herring. And he had his fly Rod. I had Takhar Rod and I was a little jealous of his ability to just real the line in at the up every time we moved from wrangled an extra ten car rod like eleven feet and his was probably using like an eight foot. Fly Rod. So you know he at new better. I creek well but I might have out. Fished him once. He gave me his secret fly in its was really the secret fly or is it the technique why because I had I've usually with Kara just like pine lakes. Just use that tinkerer fly since you do a lot of flies stuff there and I'm GonNa really sound like a a novice here right so as you as you go as you create the mean on social media you know how the little wing things are. Kinda reversed on our LE- give it a little action when you move it And it's like a little nymph pattern and that's what I was using. I wasn't catching anything. And how well they usually seem to really favor this in this little creek. And so but that uninsured Started hopping on the Rod. Yeah you don't need specific attend. Kara flies So I think it's a marketing ploy You know if you look at what he does in everybody knows he wrote a book on thank our fishing in all he does. But that's a lot of what he does it. Just it creates a simple way of fishing and a great way to teach kids. He does but he fishes plot. He ties a pheasant tail. That's all he fishes. He does different sizes and that's all he does in. That fly works everything I believe. He said he's caught bonefish on it. but steel head on it obviously trout all different kinds of things That's all that's all. He uses For the most part is is pheasant. L. That's not to say that he uses other things said he's He's he's like a little kid when he fishes. It's kind of NEAT. I've I've been fortunate enough to fish with him before he makes a symbol but he just loves catching fish assumes that way I mean I I don't know him. I saw him to the podcast. With how a couple of years ago right I sat in on that and you seem to be a guy who just love to go fish. So that's that's what he does. He really is like a little kid. It's it's it's awesome to see especially someone that Is Is Influential as he is is that he goes out and he does things on his own terms and has fun and really doesn't care what anybody else says he just he does not give a shit.

00:55:08 - 01:00:03

It's it's really cool to see. So why should you tie your own flies? It's not to save money. It's definitely not safe money. I mean I show you know the vice I think sells for eight hundred bucks now and a all the tools and materials. I'm kind of a scissor junkie so I have I have scissors. That are hundred bucks a piece. There's probably like five of them sitting in my time. Caddy right now So it's not safe money. I I think it's for creativity to be able to get things that you potentially can't get commercially thorough of phenomenal commercially flight. Commercially tied flies but I'm disabled to tie some things that I that I just know. You can't get whether it's using a different material or just a different style buying It's I guess maybe like painting or building arrows or building bows whatever. Somebody's GonNa do or in your case building tense You know you could definitely just gone out and bought a ten not going to be as good as yours but You have I think that tying is the same thing in Teton valley where we got about six hundred inches of snow every winter. There's nothing else to do the lull but now I I don't think that there's a really a benefit to throwing flies. I mean it's a I want to tell somebody that was getting into fishing. That oh you need to hire us or you're gonNA starve near better off. Just going to the store buying buying a pocketful flies. You know low box in going fishing. Support your local fly shops and get some knowledge. You know that's number one thing we help people and you know my background. Everybody else doesn't but I worked in fly fishing in the retail world for quite a ways in for quite a while and if somebody comes in and buy some flies probably GonNa get better information than if you don't buy anything that's a very important point right like when you're getting into something it pays to go. I mean even if you just go get a couple of flies that fly shop in the example were in grand junction. If you go in there and like the happiest people in the world to tell you like this go go this way. You might want to get this one in the Invaluable information when you're starting out in just getting going a value of the local fly shop right and you and I had a little conversation. Maybe when we kind talked about scheduling this podcast few weeks ago and you were talking about how the the the retail fly Fly Fishing business makers. Were really getting killed by this coveted stuff right. 'cause I can go while you can go online and buy a fly Rod. It's much better if you go to the local fly shop or it's highly recommended in a Lotta Cases. It is it's it. I'll tell you why. Thurs there's a lot of reasons first of all say you are to by Rod and Reel Setup. If you're just starting off you're going to get a rod and we go is as far as deep is certain fly rods have different. Farrell's than other fly rods where the pieces go together and I'll give you an example. A friend of mine just bought a Scott radiant fly rod which has a spigot Farrell. It's it's different than most frauds as far as Farrell in. He called me up and he was going to try to push those two pieces together. So graphite was such graphic will. That's not the way these Farrell's work so without knowing someone in the business or going to apply shop he potentially could've broke or damaged his eight hundred dollar fly Rod within fifteen minutes of owning. But then when you get it you get a rod and reel on if you really left handed the real setup right handed. You need someone to show you how to do that. You can't do those resources but then you need the wine and tobacco and put on in. You need to learn how to pie knots. And that's just to get started so while you can learn that online into the information that you're going to gain by going to fly shop in learning how to do it is invaluable. They're going to teach you how to cast read. Teach you out of older flyer odor going in.

01:00:03 - 01:05:03

It gets down to the flies wire using this fly. What is imitate? And here's here's a secret. The more time you spend in a fly shop talking to employees. They're the better relationship you're going to have and you're probably going to get deals the same deals you would get online. You get them from your local fly shop. They're probably GONNA to better places to fish while I'm not gonNA say that. A fly shop has a standard list. Where if somebody comes in says he you know if you go into the trout honor at a benign island park on the Henry's fork. They're not they. Don't just tell everybody go to the logjam you know. There's not a list of places to go but they're probably going to say. Hey man this is. This is going on here. You know. There's there's grain drake's are happening on the stretch of the river. Go check out You're you're GONNA get better advice in day turns into lifelong friendships as well. It's it's pretty incredible. I've working fly shops for you. Know Twenty twenty plus years is just some of the friends that I've met because that are through guiding and you know we talk and it may just be once a year about a trip or about gear but other ones I talked to almost on a daily basis. So if you were to break down that flies setup right rod thrill the backing fly and you got to remove the user from this question when I asked read What is the most important part like because it can get priced? He say I'm a beginner wanting to get in. I come in and say I got two hundred and fifty or three hundred bucks. I WANNA spend getting involved into sports fly-fishing. Where is it best for me to put my money? The fly line yes. I think it's it's it's the fly line of a good line can make a bad rod fish better. A bad a bad fly line will make a great fly Rod. Fish like shit if you can't cast because you have the wrong line for whatever your application is in it's gone really specific in the last shoot ten fifteen years. I mean I remember when I started fishing with fly. Rod initials almost forty years ago. Is You at two kinds of lines. You'RE A FLOATER. And you had a sinker and it's not the way now there's floating lines there's multiple densities of sinking lines. There's different tapers depending on what you're gonNA do species specific rods specific If you know you went into a good fly shop with knowledgeable employees if you walk in there of the Flyer on say I need a new line in the first thing they ask you. What Kinda Rod that do you have? What are you fishing? It's now where the line is match to the purpose in two in in specifically rods as opposed to just Oh. I'm going trout fishing. I need five wait on. It's it's not that way. I think that the flop the deadline is the is. The most important is the important part of the of the setup and as long as you take care of your fly line. It's going to last long time and in just make your trip more enjoyable. I mean a lot of times. I waited to golf is tiger woods if you gave him a Walmart Club he's GonNa hit that ball mile you know is if you give him the top of the line the best. I don't even know what what club it would be. But if you gave him the best warning still GonNa hit it up in a mile. Why does why does he? The better club as opposed to the worst one because it has better repeatability and it's probably lighter made of different materials. That makes it more comfortable. That's the same thing of Flyer is people. What'S THE DIFFERENCE. Between my hundred dollar flower. My nine hundred dollar flare-up will if you're saying you're on a drift boat for a day floating reverend thrown salmon flies. You're making a thousand cats. You have a rod that even in eight announced lighter in has swing way. It's you're going to be more comfortable in. You're going to be able to fish all day so you could get fish like you said we were talking about earlier. Yvonne Pheasant Ale. He's got everything on that. Fly One pattern clousre men. No same thing. They're flies. I there are situations where flies make a huge difference but I don't think overall it that factors into the equation. What's more the line so if you want to know? I'm not sure if it was your talk to.

01:05:03 - 01:10:01

I think it was you and I that we said that it would be really cool to go to a trip in the fly fishing that I talked to her. That we talked about it but Yeah I something that would be cool. I mean obviously now is not the time But you know what is there is what is so obviously Kevin Dennis. You guys fish. You Guys Paragraph. You're camping everywhere. Where's where's your dream trips to go? Where where if you add if you had to pick a spot right now that I'm going to go that you would go fish. Where would it be although I done before? Yeah I I'll go first because I've never saltwater fly fish for anything in to you know read articles Catching Kim bonefish down. Some really nice tropical is like on the top list somewhere. You know Yeah that'd be up there in by no means like a good fishman end or fly freshman at all but that just seems to be something that every time I think about a vacation So I'll give you. I'll give you three. If I was camping or backpacking where I would like to be now is somewhere in the canyons in Utah. however Not a good idea to go through the Navajo Nation territory. Right now. They're being really crushed. This Kovic stuff escalante would be awesome but not really much of a fishing trip If I was to combine the backpacking camping and fishing it would likely be the Hilo right now. Nice relatively nice weather Beautiful mountain scenery. Think about elk Turkey. Fish while you're going along right solo too cold to go to the boundary waters which would be. Well maybe it's not cold per se. Although her peer fishing it would probably be Alaska looking for kings. Here pretty shortly nice. I'm going to fill in as we were talking about this. I also WANNA throw a great big mouse sometime to a giant rainbow more. I think that's another cool thing. Rather just seems insane. Go to macaque routes every day. We had We Have Ryan Lampert and he spent some time over there in Russia. Catching those great big rainbows and Steph interesting podcasts. For sure and then yeah. That seems like a a whole lot of fun. Yeah most people think Ryan as the as the hunter or the the Gardner whatever but he guided for seven years up in Alaska and did a bunch of stuff over income. Chaka finding steelheads and stuff like that. That would probably be my dream. Trip is Russia Kamtchatka four steelhead number rainbows and have friend will Blair who runs a outstanding operation over income chocolates fishing on several of the rivers over there and he talks about all the time in pro mice definitely. He's the Person Talkative. But there's there steelhead that Just looks phenomenal and with the North American fishery in the Shitter It would be nice to be all go somewhere right now in in guesses her somewhat consistently at least know your issues but yeah Question because again novice don't don't know what's going on steelhead to me when I think of someone fishing efficient steelhead. They're like wrapping up a bunch of line and laying down in front of him and then they're hugging it out there. Tell tell me about that. So you're talking about two handed fishing. Yeah for casting makes life easier. It's just more efficient if you are a good space caster And I am far from being a good spe. Kassar is that you could cass hundred plus fee hunter hundred fifty feet line with Novak cast would y you're essentially using a role cast and It just makes it much easier in.

01:10:02 - 01:15:03

You're fishing for steelheads swing. You're covering water. You're making cast your let the you're casting crosser wherever you are ordering down when swing. You're taking a step or two downriver in doing it again it's just it's repeatable it's it's it's a great thing. They talk about repeatability. Were about it before of of doing up thing is you just get in a flow. And that's what you do an asset. You're just you're waiting for that tug but two handed casting that is that is the reason. Why is it just? It's a more efficient way of of making cast. Now there are people out there that Even people are sell spe rods that worked for manufacturers that sell spe rods. They will talk about that. They never. They never found the need to to use one that they could. They could just make normal casts. But it's a lot more work to cast one hundred feet with a single hand rod where you're making your double hauling. You're making plenty cast to do it. Then you have to worry about your back. S You know lot rivers. You're fishing for steelhead. You can't wait out the water. The fishermen shallow in the first place. But you just can't make aback gas to be able to get fish fish to them appropriately In it's pretty to watch I mean Images in my head right the gets. It looks really cool. You Watch people speak asset are good at it in your dislike him in out white that with people people live is zero is like oh it's such an art so beautiful walks like notice. It's just like just feel like else. You're you're making a cast. Yeah it's kind of cool looking but I I don't fight. It's are fortunate enough to take classes with some of the best the best castres in the world and to sit there and watch them. You're in awe You Know Travis Johnson. Simon Gaza were Bruce Berry. Those guys can cast it. Just you just You WanNa play rod down Walkway and sale. I'll do something else but yet it. Yes that's I think Russia's steelhead vehicle on the Let's do do it man. Lets this go not a Book it definitely go over there and fish for rainbows With the mice or go to last into it. There's there's there's plenty of places that are left to that. We probably need to go to for sure. Kumon will will will tighten things up where We're kidding everybody find you find find out more about League going on or even just usually go to dri hunters dot org. That's our website and it's a great resource whether you want to sign up Become a member did find your chapter we do. Have we have chapter in two Canadian provinces right now so we're everywhere of it will probably have all fifty states buttoned up by the end of this year? No that they're working on it. If the last few stragglers be can find information on what we're working on a public access whether it's on pebble mind or the Boundary Waters Sore L. W. CF which is which is a big one in the pandemic kind of shutdown Getting full funding for L. W. CF especially after the president tweeted of before. This happened that we needed to get it done. We needed to fund it for the full nine hundred million so of people get involved with that so we could see that happening but backcountry hunters dot. Org is the place that the defined all that information Kuni life member. The believe he gets some Zeke outside stuff honored as well not anymore. Nope no that was part of our change. All St- identified as our guys. That's the that's all I got. My my Cimarron was becoming a life member Ejei before I worked for him. I love him but we will have opportunities for people to get some stuff at the rendezvous this year. The virtual rendezvous going on people. It will sign up win and we're going to have cool competition going on which I can't say too much about yet but That's about it. Someone WANTS TO GET INTO TIME. Flies where is send a word is said? Gum There plenty of books out there.

01:15:03 - 01:20:00

Youtube videos a game. Your local fly shop will have a great resource of having classes and stuff like that Honestly I think that the best place to get instructional. Flying Videos is Down there in Colorado Charlie sly box. He's in Arvada which is just outside of Denver. Charlie is a phenomenal tire fly designer for umbrella in his videos. I watch them. I actually watched one today on a beetle. He's is incredible fly tire. You learn a lot from He. Make sure that you can follow along. Concisely engage in be able whatever pattern that he signed Bj did start. Like I said last week weeds. We've done two of them so far ours a Friday night. That is on Youtube as well. we're going to keep that going for the foreseeable future where we have some really good fly tyers On board that better doing stuff the one that we have coming up this week is garrison doctor from Rep. Your water Tighter tighter really cool nymph Zach Williams are journal Editor Tidy Chubby Chernobyl last week. And then we're going to see some cool things. We're going to seeing Josh Mills uses the Vertebrae of fished. Thia fly it'd be doing that video. Which will be cool there. Youtube is a great place to divide resources on how to learn pie and just start simple and is your abilities. Get better Go from there. Coon him also. By the way I added the podcast seek upside email. So if you have questions comments WANNA HARASS DENNIS. Me Else with drunken. Let's place to tells tells you do honeybees sake. You're doing a great job. I think that this is It's a fun way to get things out there in. Talk to different people in what we see. A lot of these outdoor podcasts. Which is sought disparaging but seems to be the same people. Just going from A. It's a podcast or interviewing a broadcaster and in going around in circles and I think it's neat when we're seeing these outdoor companies. Come up with one set. It offers a different perspective And have three parts with how? That's a the hose off. It was all over. Yes it is I did a podcast with how a while back in we have still not read it and I don't know why we drag a lot of whiskey during the podcast. But it was it was. It was the same way when all over the place but it never aired night probably should ask Katie McCallum. The reason why that hasn't hasn't heather from others toys and I did a podcast with Abe Henderson from Alaska. Do do it yourself at the Boise Rodney. A couple of years ago and I think it started about nine at night and I think we've left around two thirty in the morning and we are. We drank way way too much. That was never aired and I'm so replied with baby should get a drinking podcast sometimes. Yeah our mountain hunter but from what Heather said that You know they like to drink it. Their heads choice meetings to a good good. Yeah I mean these. Things are all about having fun. I love doing it I would really like to see I like to do more. I keep on kicking around the idea of starting to podcasts. And than some people tell me well. Everyone's doing them. Then then you get into work. I'm a procrastinator a lot of time so once I have them then I'd have to edit them get them out there. I don't know at work. Yeah but we don't know what we're doing either so we can help you. We can do it together. All W- we put ours off for like a year. We had the equipment around and we talked about talked about it and this Kobe thing and Dennis will. What can we do this productive? That podcast war. I mean it's a good way to bullshit and hopefully people learn things and yeah. It's great so as you know. We both know about dentists. But I know that you get in the car and drive quite away so you're always looking for content to listen to saint pay. Kumon appreciate you taking the time coming on and hopefully we get to talk again soon.

01:20:01 - 01:20:58

Maybe even go fishing sometime. Gals get your pear. Kevin's been up here. A couple of times never fish but we guys get more Lemon Gorge Green River. We can do that Yeah or come up here. I'm getting ready to start floating religiously for mushrooms and all our fishing going to get really good so Yes I could definitely repair because I've never really fished up there. So there you go road trip road trip to encamp yeah in camp podcast. Tb and walk me. Stay SAFE YOUTUBE. Take care everyone real quick before you go just wanted to say. Thanks for listening if you've been enjoying what you're hearing. Please leave us a review wherever you find your podcasts.